Legislature(1999 - 2000)

03/21/2000 02:00 PM House FIN

Audio Topic
* first hearing in first committee of referral
+ teleconferenced
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
txt
HOUSE BILL NO. 42                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                
An Act relating to civil liability for certain false or                                                                         
improper allegations in a civil pleading or for certain                                                                         
improper acts relating to a civil action; amending Rule                                                                         
82(b), Alaska Rules of Civil Procedure; and providing                                                                           
for an effective date.                                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
ROBERT MINTZ, SELF, ANCHORAGE, stated that HB 42 would                                                                          
prevent frivolous lawsuits by requiring parties to a lawsuit                                                                    
and their attorneys to be truthful and responsible in their                                                                     
pleadings.  The bill discourages false statements and claims                                                                    
in litigation and encourages responsibility by all parties                                                                      
and their attorneys.  He added that it would require more                                                                       
careful and focused preparation of pleadings.                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
This bill creates an obligation, in statute, for litigants                                                                      
and attorneys to make reasonable efforts to assure those                                                                        
claims have a reasonable basis in fact and are valid under                                                                      
existing law.  If the claim is intentionally false, both the                                                                    
attorney and the party can be assessed damages.  Currently,                                                                     
there is no effective way of holding parties responsible for                                                                    
frivolous pleadings or claims.  Frivolous pleadings and                                                                         
claims increase the costs of litigation for all the parties                                                                     
involved in addition to escalating the cost of the judicial                                                                     
system.                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
Mr. Mintz commented that HB 42 would require attorneys, as                                                                      
well as their clients, to research their claims to assure                                                                       
they are factually supported before filing a lawsuit.  The                                                                      
bill will eliminate "boiler plate" pleadings in lawsuits and                                                                    
encourages responsible and focused pleadings.  "Boiler                                                                          
plate" pleadings include everything that "anyone could ever                                                                     
imagine could have happened" rather than focusing on                                                                            
specific issues that actually did occur.  Those extraneous                                                                      
pleadings are expensive for innocent parties to litigate and                                                                    
most often are thrown out.  They cause one party, and the                                                                       
court system, to expend significant dollars to pare down to                                                                     
real issues.                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
Mr. Mintz continued that many suits are often less expensive                                                                    
to settle than to litigate, regardless of their merit.  The                                                                     
bill does not affect suits filed in good faith.  It would                                                                       
deter those without merit.  A system that allows deceit to                                                                      
be rewarded must be changed.                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
Mr. Mintz noted that the bill would assign financial                                                                            
liability to those whom:                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
? Intentionally advance a civil pleading containing a false                                                                     
allegation  of material fact;                                                                                                   
? File a lawsuit, first determining that it has a                                                                               
reasonable basis in fact or law;                                                                                                
? Use claims or cross claims to cloud an issue;                                                                                 
? File unsuccessful claims on the hope of finding someone                                                                       
willing to settle rather than spending the money to                                                                             
litigate the suit; and                                                                                                          
? Sign a civil pleading before making reasonable inquiry to                                                                     
determine if it is well grounded in fact and warranted by                                                                       
existing law.                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
Mr. Mintz concluded that the basic purpose of HB 42 is to                                                                       
give injured parties effective remedies for bad faith civil                                                                     
litigation.  The bill will only apply to the person lying                                                                       
and that if the facts find a party has made an intentional,                                                                     
false statement of material fact.                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                
Co-Chair Mulder asked Mr. Mintz to explain the procedure                                                                        
established in HB 42.  Mr. Mintz first explained that Civil                                                                     
Rule 11 is the current procedure.  These are rules of                                                                           
procedure that are promulgated by the Supreme Court.  The                                                                       
focus of HB 42 is different from that.  It does not impinge                                                                     
upon the Supreme Court's rule making power.  It creates                                                                         
duties that are owed by people who engage in litigation to                                                                      
other people who are engaged in litigation.  It will create                                                                     
duties of truthfulness.  Civil Rule 11 is discretionary and                                                                     
allows the judge to fashion a remedy in certain                                                                                 
circumstances.                                                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
Co-Chair Mulder asked Mr. Mintz to explain how the process                                                                      
would function.  Mr. Mintz replied that the legislation                                                                         
would create two remedies.  The first, under Section A,                                                                         
would require the offended party to notify that party that                                                                      
lied. The bill is designed to self correct the system.  He                                                                      
hoped that it could be corrected during the course of                                                                           
litigation.  If not and person who lied was the successful                                                                      
party in the litigation, then subsequently, the person that                                                                     
prevailed could bring a separate action to recover their                                                                        
full costs.                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
Mr. Mintz explained that in the context of an affirmative                                                                       
lie, it would be one of the two ways in which HB 42 could                                                                       
occur.  The other way is during the course of litigation,                                                                       
and there was a jury instruction, and if it was found that                                                                      
someone lied and the lie was material to a particular issue                                                                     
then that person would lose on that issue.  There is an                                                                         
exception to that in cases where public policy is involved.                                                                     
There, the judge could use monetary damages against the                                                                         
liar.                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
Representative J. Davies asked if this discussion was aimed                                                                     
at Page 2, Subsection (b), Lines 8-12.  Mr. Mintz stated                                                                        
that the reference was to Subsection (c), Lines 15-21, which                                                                    
applied to Subsection (b).  Representative J. Davies                                                                            
requested clarification that in the case of someone offering                                                                    
an intentional lie or misstatement of fact, that the                                                                            
underlining claim would get dismissed.  He referenced an                                                                        
occurrence in a child support case.  Co-Chair Mulder stated                                                                     
that those cases are excluded from these actions.  All the                                                                      
excluded type cases are listed on Page 3, Lines 15-20.                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
Representative J. Davies countered that the same principle                                                                      
would apply to other civil cases.  A case is decided on                                                                         
whether or not there is an intentional falsehood.  He                                                                           
understands that there could be a penalty attached, but to                                                                      
decide the underlining truth of the case on that basis would                                                                    
be an over-reaction.                                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
Co-Chair Mulder stated that after 8 years of working this                                                                       
legislation through the House Judiciary Committee,                                                                              
Subsection (C) had been added to address these concerns.                                                                        
Mr. Mintz stated that Subsection (C) addresses situations                                                                       
where more than just liar's interest is at stake.  He added                                                                     
that through Subsection (B), the court is only required to                                                                      
dismiss the claim or defense to which the false statement                                                                       
relates and not the entire case.  All would not be lost.                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
Representative J. Davies advised that this legislation is an                                                                    
"over reaction".  He did not understand why the whole                                                                           
determination would be decided on one issue.  He believed                                                                       
that information would presumably come out in trial.                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
Co-Chair Mulder responded from the extent that it is                                                                            
material fact, is the center point from which the case was                                                                      
determined, and that those persons must be held responsible                                                                     
for their actions.  Representative J. Davies interjected                                                                        
that Civil Rule 11 does address that point.  Co-Chair Mulder                                                                    
commented that it does not do it effectively.  He indicated                                                                     
that this is a policy statement.  Co-Chair Mulder emphasized                                                                    
that the legislation would elevate the level of conduct                                                                         
expected when going to court.  He questioned if that would                                                                      
be justified.                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
Mr. Mintz enumerated his personal experience in a case. He                                                                      
stated that many of the claims made against him were                                                                            
frivolous during a time that he was Chairman of Alaska                                                                          
Housing Finance Corporation (AHFC).  The defense case cost                                                                      
the State over $200 thousand dollars.  He emphasized that it                                                                    
was a grievous waste of money and there was no way there                                                                        
could be any recourse.  HB 42 resulted from that experience.                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
Co-Chair Mulder made a change to the work draft, 1-LS0246\K,                                                                    
Ford, 3/21/00,[Copy on File], Page 2, Line 17, after                                                                            
"another" insert "person or" and make the same change to                                                                        
Line 18.                                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
Vice Chair Bunde MOVED to adopt the work draft version K                                                                        
with the above mentioned changes, as the version of the bill                                                                    
before the Committee.  There being NO OBJECTION, it was                                                                         
adopted.                                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
Vice Chair Bunde asked what would happen if someone lied and                                                                    
prevailed.  He inquired how the statutes on perjury would                                                                       
interrelate with this legislation.  Mr. Mintz replied that                                                                      
perjury is criminal.  The bill only applies to a civil                                                                          
context. He agreed that a criminal case is held to a higher                                                                     
standard than a civil case.  Mr. Mintz stated that the bill                                                                     
is a "step in the right direction, but does not fix all the                                                                     
problems out there".                                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
Representative Williams asked if the legislation applied to                                                                     
lying under oath.  Mr. Mintz explained that the bill                                                                            
addresses more than lying under oath.  It applies to                                                                            
statements which you know are false.  It also applies to                                                                        
motions and affidavits that are filed in court.                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
Representative J. Davies asked if the legislation would                                                                         
apply to cases where a statement had been omitted                                                                               
intentionally.  Mr. Mintz replied that it would apply                                                                           
equally to denials, which are known to be false, and is                                                                         
meant to apply to both sides.   Representative J. Davies                                                                        
pointed out that the party would have to lose the case.                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
Co-Chair Mulder interjected that "this is a two edge sword".                                                                    
It should focus the discussion more on the points of                                                                            
difference.  Representative J. Davies inquired where that                                                                       
reference was indicated in the legislation.  Mr. Mintz                                                                          
commented that if what you claim is true and it is denied,                                                                      
it would be covered in this legislation.                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
Representative Phillips added that making a false statement                                                                     
could encompass an omission of fact because not including                                                                       
all the facts is in of itself, a false statement.                                                                               
                                                                                                                                
KAREN COWERT, (TESTIFIED VIA TELECONFERENCE), GENERAL                                                                           
MANAGER, ALASKA SUPPORT INDUSTRY ALLIANCE (THE ALLIANCE),                                                                       
ANCHORAGE, stated that the Alliance has served as the                                                                           
statewide non-profit trade organization for businesses which                                                                    
provide products and services to the oil and gas industry.                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
Ms. Cowert noted that House Bill 42 would require litigating                                                                    
parties to research their claims to assure accuracy, or pay                                                                     
the consequence of suing without just cause.  The Alliance                                                                      
supports such measures.                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
She commented that Alaska has suffered significant economic                                                                     
losses as a few individuals successfully circumvent public                                                                      
processes through litigation.  It seems that nearly every                                                                       
proposal or plan to develop the State's natural resources or                                                                    
to enhance its infrastructure is met with a lawsuit,                                                                            
regardless of whether there are reasonable grounds to sue.                                                                      
She noted that the Alliance believes that many such legal                                                                       
actions only serve to delay developments that are important                                                                     
to Alaskans' quality of life and economic well being.                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
Ms. Cowart pointed out that HB 42 would create an                                                                               
obligation, in statute, for litigants and attorneys to make                                                                     
reasonable efforts to ensure their claims have a factual                                                                        
bearing before filing a lawsuit.  The bill would also make                                                                      
those that filed a frivolous suit responsible for assessed                                                                      
damages.  Furthermore, the bill will assign financial                                                                           
liability to those who cloud the issue with false or                                                                            
misleading claims, in hopes of finding a party willing to                                                                       
settle rather than spend dollars to litigate.                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
She noted that the Alliance believes that each party in a                                                                       
lawsuit has a responsibility to present factual and                                                                             
legitimate information.  A system that allows deceit to be                                                                      
awarded is not right.                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
PAMELA LABOLLE, PRESIDENT, ALASKA STATE CHAMBER OF COMMERCE,                                                                    
JUNEAU, testified in support of the proposed legislation.                                                                       
She stated that the legislation proposes a basic premise                                                                        
needed to address that intentional lying should not prevail.                                                                    
She concurred that there needs to be a way to punish people                                                                     
who base a case on an intentional lie.                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
Representative Grussendorf observed that in many situations,                                                                    
the truth is a "fine line".  Co-Chair Mulder pointed out                                                                        
that there is a standard established in the legislation                                                                         
emphasizing "reasonable" and that it would address that                                                                         
concern.                                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
MICHAEL LESSMIER, ATTORNEY, STATE FARM INSURANCE, JUNEAU,                                                                       
stated that State Farm Insurance supports the proposed                                                                          
legislation as it sets forth a minimal standard that people                                                                     
need to go through before they undertake a lawsuit.  It                                                                         
clarifies that one makes sure that the case has a reasonable                                                                    
basis in fact and in law.  If it does not, the bill states                                                                      
that you can not continue.  He clarified that those are                                                                         
protections which have not been present.  Additionally, the                                                                     
bill establishes a "truth provision", which applies only to                                                                     
a party that intentionally makes a false statement of                                                                           
material fact.  Nothing in the bill is intended to address                                                                      
the situation where witnesses have a ligitiment difference                                                                      
of opinion. It is designed to address conduct by a party                                                                        
which does not meet a reasonable standard of investigation.                                                                     
He stated that the proposed legislation is "preventative and                                                                    
curative" in the sense that it will cure a wrong that has                                                                       
been done.                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
In response to Co-Chair Mulder, Mr. Lessmier explained that                                                                     
contained in Section (A), Subsection 2, clarifies that as                                                                       
long as there is a reasonable inquiry, and you form a                                                                           
reasonable belief in the existence of facts from which the                                                                      
claim or defense is made you are protected.  You could be                                                                       
sued only if you don't meet this minimal standard and you                                                                       
fail to respond to the notice and correct your action in 21                                                                     
days, and then you lost the case.  On the issue in question,                                                                    
the notice provision is designed to be self-corrective.  As                                                                     
long as there is a reasonable basis in law and fact, the                                                                        
legislation will not hurt you.  The legislation is not                                                                          
designed to second- guess anything.                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
Representative J. Davies stated that if it were an obvious                                                                      
case where someone was lying and it was obvious that it was                                                                     
done intentionally, then everyone would agree that person                                                                       
should be punished.  He added, however, that he had problems                                                                    
with the logic.  "Life is often messy" and there will always                                                                    
be "gray" areas where it is difficult to tell the intent of                                                                     
a person and where the law applies.  It is not always easy                                                                      
to read the statutes to determine if the law applies. That                                                                      
is why cases go to court so to determine if the law applies.                                                                    
He believed that the legislation could prevent cases from                                                                       
forming because of "fear" or "worry" that their view in                                                                         
relation to how the law applies might be determined to be                                                                       
incorrect and they then they would be stuck. Representative                                                                     
J. Davies voiced additional concern with the penalty, which                                                                     
would dismiss the claim because someone might have                                                                              
intentionally lied about it.                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
Mr. Lessmier asked the Committee to consider who are we                                                                         
really trying to protect.  Is it the person who makes a                                                                         
false statement of fact for purposes of material gain.  He                                                                      
believed that should be discouraged and that the victim                                                                         
should be protected.  He emphasized that was the fundamental                                                                    
issue of the provision, as it applies only to a party who                                                                       
intentionally makes false statements of fact.  The people                                                                       
that need to be protected are the ones that are innocent                                                                        
victims of that conduct.  Representative J. Davies stated                                                                       
that if nine out of ten facts were true, and that the person                                                                    
was guilty under nine assertions but under the tenth one                                                                        
they were not guilty, what would happen.  He stressed that                                                                      
it would not be about protecting some innocent victim, but                                                                      
rather, they were guilty but allowed to "skate" because                                                                         
someone lied under one assertion.                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                
Mr. Lessmier stated that in a real life situation, the jury                                                                     
would probably not find that the one fact would be                                                                              
sufficiently "material" in terms of the context of the                                                                          
claim.   That one fact would probably be viewed as                                                                              
insignificant.  The legislation requires that it be                                                                             
intentional, false and material.  He emphasized that is                                                                         
important.  The message that the legislation is sending is                                                                      
that people found to fit this conduct are going to be few                                                                       
because the standard is high.                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
Mr. Lessmier expressed that nothing in the bill is designed                                                                     
for a situation where someone takes a position based on                                                                         
research and thought which is wrong.  All that it states is                                                                     
that you have a "reasonable basis in law".  It does not say                                                                     
you have to win.  Representative J. Davies asked that cite.                                                                     
Mr. Lessmier referenced two provisions, 2(a)(b), which                                                                          
indicates "reasonable inquiry and forming a reasonable                                                                          
belief".  The next provision that is important stipulates                                                                       
that nothing is designed from preventing someone from                                                                           
arguing in good faith that the law should be changed or                                                                         
extended.  This would not apply to someone using the minimal                                                                    
standard with some research and thought.                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
Co-Chair Mulder asked who the bill designed to protect. If a                                                                    
person tells the truth, the bill would protect them.  He                                                                        
stressed that it would be difficult to argue on behalf of                                                                       
someone that is not telling the truth.  Representative J.                                                                       
Davies reiterated that if the world was black and white, he                                                                     
would agree with Co-Chair Mulder.  However, it is not so.                                                                       
The proposed legislation could have a "chilling effect" on                                                                      
those people who do not have a lot of resources and are up                                                                      
against corporations that do and are sophisticated.                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
Co-Chair Mulder asserted that the world is black and white                                                                      
in relationship to truth and fact. The truth is not gray.                                                                       
If you were the one being taken to court, you would have to                                                                     
prove why the other person believed that what you said was                                                                      
untrue.  He emphasized that this is a balancing act.                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
(TAPE CHANGE, HFC 00 - 75, Side 2)                                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
Representative Grussendorf asked how the Department of Law                                                                      
would operate under the proposed legislation.                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
SUSAN COX, ASSISTANT ATTORNEY GENERAL, DEPARTMENT OF LAW,                                                                       
stated that the Department recognizes that "things are not                                                                      
always black and white".  While the bill is not directed at                                                                     
addressing the legitimate differences of opinions between                                                                       
opponents in civil litigation, it does raise the possibility                                                                    
that if parties do not agree, in either case, the loser                                                                         
looses, and that if the winner does not recover their full                                                                      
compensation, they will then take the next step of pursuing                                                                     
the second loss against that party for whatever they did not                                                                    
get the first time around.  She pointed out the focus on the                                                                    
aspect of "intentional lying" addressed in (A)-2 of the                                                                         
bill.  However, (A)-3 provides that a cause of action will                                                                      
arise if a person participates in a continuation of claim                                                                       
after a person discovers that the claim or defensive is not                                                                     
supported by a reasonable basis or valid under applicable                                                                       
law.                                                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
Ms. Cox could foresee situations, in which, after the "dust                                                                     
settles", the argument is made that the looser has lost.                                                                        
The law did not apply or the facts did not appear as they                                                                       
were portrayed to be.  They would loose. She foresaw the                                                                        
provision of (A)-3 to be more of an "open door" than the                                                                        
intentional lying.  Ms. Cox added that is why the Department                                                                    
has submitted a fiscal note.                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
Representative Grussendorf voiced concern that the issue                                                                        
does not get in the way of the defense of the original case.                                                                    
He looked at the amount of time that the case could consume                                                                     
and how discouraging that could become.  He recommended more                                                                    
funding for Alaska Legal Services.                                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
Ms. Cox noted that because of the procedure in the bill, in                                                                     
order to invoke the cases of action, someone would have to                                                                      
give notice to the opposing party that they should take                                                                         
corrective action.  She noted that corrective action could                                                                      
cause liability prospects.                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
Co-Chair Mulder suggested that as a lawyer, it would be                                                                         
prudent to provide reasonable inquiry to establish whether                                                                      
your client is telling the truth.  Ms. Cox replied that is                                                                      
true but pointed out to the reference to (A)-3, which states                                                                    
that if the attorney continues to litigate the case,                                                                            
maintaining a claim or defense that is not supported by a                                                                       
reasonable basis applicable by current law, does not mean                                                                       
that the attorney would not get sued.  She stressed that                                                                        
there would be another layer of intrigue.  If it is a                                                                           
complicated case, it could result in a situation where                                                                          
competing experts and the reasonableness of facts would be                                                                      
an issue.  She emphasized that this legislation is going to                                                                     
cost money.                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
Representative Grussendorf stated that the bill would                                                                           
protect the attorney who is supposedly telling the truth.                                                                       
However, the witness would be out of the protection area.                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
Mr. Lessmier explained that Subsection (B)&(C) do not apply                                                                     
to the witness.  He objected to the comment that the                                                                            
legislation would create more litigation.  He suggested                                                                         
contrasting what is currently in the system.  What exists                                                                       
now is "nothing".  If someone is faced with an allegation                                                                       
that is frivolous or untrue, there is no protection.  The                                                                       
cost can be high.  The proposed legislation provides                                                                            
something "in between".  It requires a notice to correct the                                                                    
action.  If the action is corrected, there will be no                                                                           
opportunity for a second suite.  If the party does not win,                                                                     
they do not receive a second chance. Actual attorney fees                                                                       
and cost would have to be paid by the loosing party to any                                                                      
action created by the bill.  Mr. Lessmier stated there are                                                                      
incentives for this to be "self curing and protective" to                                                                       
the person that is subject to these claims.                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
Representative J. Davies asked if the statement that "there                                                                     
is nothing to defend against" is a true statement.  Ms. Cox                                                                     
responded that could be "called into place".  Civil Rule 11                                                                     
could be used as a possibility for a sanctioning attorney                                                                       
who is involved in failing to make an inquiry.  It is not                                                                       
frequently invoked.                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
Ms. Cox noted that Rule 82 provides for partial attorney fee                                                                    
recovery to prevailing parties and actually includes a                                                                          
formula for how much the winner gets.  There are eight                                                                          
factors, which allow the Courts to deviate from that                                                                            
formula.  Some of the subsections in Rule 86 allow for                                                                          
increasing the fee award for certain stipulations including                                                                     
bad faith conduct.                                                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
Civil Rule 56 provides for the standard for granting summary                                                                    
judgement in the State and has a penalty in 56(G) which                                                                         
states that if it appears to the satisfaction of the Court,                                                                     
many of the affidavits presented in support of judgement                                                                        
motion are presented in bad faith, for the purpose of delay,                                                                    
the court can then order the party, reasonable expenses and                                                                     
include reasonable fees.  There are civil causes of action                                                                      
in common law for abusive process and malicious prosecution,                                                                    
which are more difficult to prove than what currently exists                                                                    
in legislation.                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
Co-Chair Mulder asked what was wrong with the current                                                                           
system.  Mr. Lessmier responded that the difficulties with                                                                      
Civil Rule 11 are remedies that are rarely invoked by a                                                                         
judge.  Remedy under Rule 82 requires a person to litigate                                                                      
until the end.  And then with that, one could only receive a                                                                    
portion of the costs and attorney fees.  There is no                                                                            
mechanism for self-correction in the current law.                                                                               
                                                                                                                                
Representative J. Davies asked about the category of                                                                            
perjury.  Additionally, if the case is clearly frivolous,                                                                       
and not based in law, he asked if the judge had the right to                                                                    
dismiss the case.  Mr. Lessmier commented that even if a                                                                        
perjury case were aggressively prosecuted, it still would                                                                       
not protect the people that are victims of this conduct. It                                                                     
would not apply until after the fact.  He did not believe                                                                       
that the Department of Law often uses their resources to                                                                        
prosecute these types of cases.  Additionally, there is a                                                                       
standard for judges in ruling on motions for summary and                                                                        
judgement.  The work of the court in those situations is to                                                                     
look at the facts in the light most favorably to the other                                                                      
side. The court will not weigh whether one person is telling                                                                    
the truth or not.  The court assumes if person signs an                                                                         
affidavit, the case will not be dismissed. He emphasized                                                                        
that it is rare for a court to make a finding that a case if                                                                    
frivolous.                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
Ms. Cox disagreed, noting that if there is a dispute of                                                                         
fact, a summary of judgement will not be granted.  If                                                                           
someone is putting forth-false information, the court will                                                                      
not weigh the credibility of the respective witnesses.                                                                          
However, if the case is not founded in the law, it is common                                                                    
to be able to get dismissal, which does occur frequently.                                                                       
Mr. Lessmier agreed that if it is not founded or based in                                                                       
the law, that the courts will dismiss those cases.                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
Representative G. Davis referenced the number of perjury                                                                        
cases that have been tried.  He asked if there should have                                                                      
been more.  Mr. Lessmier replied that in the 1st Judicial                                                                       
District, he did not know of a perjury case being tried.                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
Representative G. Davis asked if the judge could make that                                                                      
determination and then would it be appealable.  Ms. Cox                                                                         
responded that there are two considerations in that.  Rule                                                                      
82, which is the civil rule that allows the winner to                                                                           
recover part of their attorney's fees from the looser is the                                                                    
area which states that "bad faith conduct" on the part of a                                                                     
looser "enhances the award the winner gets". That would be                                                                      
the court's call and it is appealable including the award of                                                                    
fees.   Mr. Lessmier clarified that it is appeallable only                                                                      
under an abuse of discretion standard, which is difficult to                                                                    
meet.                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
Representative J. Davies requested that Senator Taylor                                                                          
testify on the proposed legislation.                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
SENATOR ROBIN TAYLOR commented that there is "no good side"                                                                     
to the legislation.  He noted that in his own experience as                                                                     
a judge and attorney, he has seen as much bad faith claims                                                                      
by people representing insurance carriers.  Many more than                                                                      
those people litigating on behalf of victims.  "The                                                                             
insurance companies are not victims".  They end up paying                                                                       
victims.  There is no incentive for a private practitioner                                                                      
that is handling a case on a contingency fee because "all                                                                       
that it will do, is to further delay his case". The faster                                                                      
the case can be gotten to trail is the quicker he will get                                                                      
his own money back because he is the one paying for the cost                                                                    
of the case.  Senator Taylor reiterated that there would be                                                                     
no incentive to delay the case.  Bringing additional claims                                                                     
to the ability for settlement or leverage could enhance the                                                                     
case.                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
Senator Taylor added that on the defense side, there is no                                                                      
impediment for defense council to throw everything they can                                                                     
at case and make motions on each aspect of it. He emphasized                                                                    
it will happen.  On the two sides of litigation, there first                                                                    
is the attorney that will be paid for all their time. Even                                                                      
after they loose the motion, they are still going to get                                                                        
paid.  They have no accountability what so ever.  On the                                                                        
other side of that issue, there are people who are paying                                                                       
their own money to litigate cases on behalf of injured                                                                          
parties.  He questioned how to balance the two.  He asked                                                                       
how to put more backbone into the judiciary system. Senator                                                                     
Taylor stated that there are all types of remedies, which a                                                                     
judge has at their disposal to curtain the types of                                                                             
activities that the bill is trying to touch.  He added that                                                                     
the bill is well motivated, however, with the "huge,                                                                            
economic disparity" between the benefits flowing from one                                                                       
side to another, the disparity must be first balanced. He                                                                       
agreed that one side would be placed at a disadvantage.                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
Senator Taylor advised that all the testimony in favor of                                                                       
this bill would come from the insurance industry.  Co-Chair                                                                     
Mulder disagreed, noting the letters of support contained in                                                                    
member's packets.                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                
Senator Taylor countered that he was referring to                                                                               
professionals. Co-Chair Mulder interjected that these are                                                                       
"real people" and he stressed that there is no way that they                                                                    
can be made "whole".  Senator Taylor suggested that is why                                                                      
Rule 82 needs to be changed.  If that rule was changed,                                                                         
those people could be made whole.  When it comes to                                                                             
professionals within the law, the people that will be seen                                                                      
are coming from the insurance industry.  He emphasized that                                                                     
private practitioners will not testify in support of this                                                                       
legislation.  He stressed that this bill is a lawyer's                                                                          
dream.  If you have a client big enough that can afford to                                                                      
litigate on every issue, they not only get to litigate on                                                                       
that case, but with notice they can litigate on many other                                                                      
cases which that attorney prevailed on.  He provided a                                                                          
hypothetical situation of going over the speed limit.  What                                                                     
is the truth of `over the speed limit".  Each person could                                                                      
bring in witnesses regarding that fact and your speed.  The                                                                     
jury of twelve people has to determine that information.  He                                                                    
reiterated that fact is determined by the jury and                                                                              
determined by the preponderance of the evidence.  The                                                                           
evidence could trigger a whole series of additional                                                                             
litigation.                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
Senator Taylor agreed that a way to correct the complication                                                                    
should be attempted.  However, he believed that we should do                                                                    
more to strengthen the methods of remedies within law to                                                                        
address the vexatious case.  The manner that has been                                                                           
established in the proposed legislation creates an economic                                                                     
distortion that occurs in real life that can not be                                                                             
accounted for in the bill.                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
Co-Chair Mulder disagreed, stating that there is no means                                                                       
for the common person to adequately defend himself when it                                                                      
is cheaper to settle out of court.  The insurance company                                                                       
will tell them that.  "There is no way to be made whole"                                                                        
with the cost of attorney fees and everything else.  Senator                                                                    
Taylor interjected that until Rule 82 is changed; nothing                                                                       
will be made whole.  He concluded that the system could use                                                                     
some adjusting and he supported the effort but warned about                                                                     
the consequences.                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                
Mr. Mintz responded that the multiplicity of litigation                                                                         
issue has come up a few times. In truth, it will not be                                                                         
known without evidence and without trying something new to                                                                      
see how it works.  He believed that HB 42 would work as it                                                                      
changes the paradigm that we are used to living with in                                                                         
connection with litigation.  He did not think that after HB
42 passes that someone would be as easy or as quick to file                                                                     
lawsuit to assert a marginal claim.  The goal of the                                                                            
legislation is to raise the bar and make it so that the                                                                         
marginal claims fall out of the system and only the                                                                             
substantial claims move forward.                                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
Mr. Mintz stated that when HB 42 action is filed, you would                                                                     
have to be clear that there is no basis for the suit that                                                                       
you successfully prevailed in.  When filed, you are exposing                                                                    
yourself to the actual costs and attorneys fees.  It would                                                                      
not be an action that would be taken lightly or done on a                                                                       
marginal case.  He added that the cases where it has cost a                                                                     
lot of money to defend the claim, those are the cases where                                                                     
HB 42 action should be allowed.                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
Co-Chair Mulder asked why not "beef up Rule 82".  Mr. Mintz                                                                     
stated that the real reason is that it would take a two-                                                                        
thirds vote of the legislature to change a court rule and it                                                                    
only takes a simple majority to create a new cause of                                                                           
action.                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
Representative Grussendorf commented that by the title of                                                                       
the bill, that would still be required.  Mr. Mintz replied                                                                      
that would occur only for the section that provides for                                                                         
actual costs and attorneys fees.  All the substantive                                                                           
provisions go into effect for the cause of action.  What                                                                        
would be lost without the two-thirds majority would be the                                                                      
actual cost and attorney fees.                                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
Vice Chair Bunde MOVED to report CS HB 42 (FIN) out of                                                                          
Committee with individual recommendations and with the                                                                          
accompanying fiscal notes.  There being NO OBJECTION, it was                                                                    
so ordered.                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
CS HB 42 (FIN) was reported out of Committee with a "no                                                                         
recommendation" and with new fiscal notes by the Department                                                                     
of Law and the Alaska Court System.                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
(TAPE CHANGE, HFC 00 - 76, Side 1)                                                                                              

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